Chakrabarti’s plan, which I posted above, does not require moving 2 Penn.
1 Like
How about demolishing One Penn and moving the Port Authority Bus Terminal back to its former home?
That would restore the intermodal nature of Penn Station that existed before the 1960s:
3 Likes
See my above proposal to incentivize Vornado and MSG to team up. Condition the operating permit for the Garden, and a casino license for Vornado, on the two groups partnering on an arena + casino on the CB5 site.
It has the potential to be one of the most lucrative venues in the word.
1 Like
That is just a greyhound bus terminal and has no affiliation with the Port Authority nor is it its “original home.” The PABT is still in its original location.
What is pictured below is the original form of the Port Authority Bus Terminal before it was expanded and covered in bracing, etc. For its time in the 50s, it wasn’t the heinous and repulsive edifice that it is today.
(Source)
5 Likes
Now that I understand the nature and history of the operating permit, MSG doesn’t need incentive to leave. They can’t host events with more than 2,500 people once it expires.
Vornado has massive incentive to proceed with MSG on the Hotel Penn site and adjacent sites. There is no market for the towers it had hoped to build there in the foreseeable future.
1 Like
Never seen that before. It was actually a quite handsome art deco building once 
1 Like
There’s a whole lot of If’s/ands with something like that ever happening. not to mention, Vornado doesn’t own all the sites that it would require.
1 Like
Of course, but the State was prepared to essentially declare the whole area blighted to make way for its new district. If all parties could agree on a win-win-win solution, I have no doubt they’d be willing to use eminent domain, fast-track a rezoning, whatever else it would take to make it happen.
I haven’t been following this area but is Penn 15 still happening? If not it could be a good location for a replacement MSG.
I like the idea of maybe putting an MSG sphere in Hudson yards
That’s one of the options.
The 3-story parking garage on top of the PABT was added in 1963, per PANYNJ website:
Before the 1963 addition, this is what the initial PABT looked like between 1950 and 1963:
source: https://failedarchitecture.com/the-port-authority-bus-terminal-myth-mystery-mess/
In any case, before the 1960s there were several bus terminals scattered throughout Manhattan, one of them being the Greyhound bus terminal where One Penn Plaza is nowadays. Greyhound actually stayed at the Penn Station bus terminal after PABT opened and didn’t move to PABT until 1963. The Penn Station bus terminal could have been saved, but it was knocked down around the same time as the Penn Station train station. It actually had a seedy reputation, much like PABT today:
By the late 1940’s their 34th Street terminal had become one of the most crime infested places in mid-town Manhattan.
Source: The Pennsylvania and Capitol Greyhound Terminals
The bus terminal on 34th St was knocked down between 1963 and 1965:
Daabros, a chain of discount department stores, leased the Pennsylvania Greyhound Terminal in June, 1963. Their plans to convert the former terminal into a store never came to fruition. Exactly when the terminal came down has been lost to time. An aerial photograph taken on July 28, 1965 documenting Pennsylvania Station’s demolition shows the site of the bus terminal as a parking lot. It seems probable that the 34th street Greyhound Terminal did not survive past the end of 1963.
Source: The Pennsylvania and Capitol Greyhound Terminals
This photo from July 1965 shows a parking lot on the site:
source: The Pennsylvania and Capitol Greyhound Terminals
Construction of One Penn Plaza on this site began in 1970.
If One Penn Plaza were to be demolished it would be the tallest voluntarily demolished building in NYC (taller than 270 Park Avenue) and second-tallest voluntarily demolished building in the world (shorter than 8 Shenton Way, Singapore). I am not sure what could be done with that site other than expanding Penn Station platforms to the north.
5 Likes
They shouldn’t renew the permit and not just because of Penn Station. The city refused to give him the permit in perpetuity a decade ago. They gave him a decade long permit so he could find somewhere to move, it is not the city’s fault or its responsibility that he didn’t look or didn’t find one (despite having multiple options and even a direct offer from HY). Now it’s time to refuse him the permit. Sure they can’t force him to leave, but have fun with a tenth of the audience. And not just for sports. Any event, a tenth of the audience.
This isn’t a nowhere city. It should not bend to the will of a sports team and its owner. It should stand firm on the decision it made a decade ago.
5 Likes
I wouldn’t be surprised if the current MSG lasts at least another 20 years and all the current proposed relocation sites on Manhattan are filled with 600ft tall skyscrapers.
If MSG is staying on Manhattan it needs to happen soon!
NY deserves something like this.
5 Likes
Though I mostly agree, MSG Sphere is not capable of hosting arena type events as it can’t undergo those configuration changes, it can only host performance and concert type events like typical performance halls as that is what it was designed for.
Aside from that, MSG Sphere wouldn’t fit anywhere in Manhattan, not even Hudson Yards. 
2 Likes
It doesn’t have to be the sphere itself — just a great, new modern arena. I go to a lot of Rangers and Nets games. Barclays is far nicer than MSG.
As I noted, MSG isn’t the only arena in a major city that’s garbage. I go to many Rangers games in DC, and the Capital One arena is junk too despite being only twenty years old. I guarantee that the Caps and Wizards will get a new arena in the next few years.
2 Likes
Madison Square Garden has about as much chance of moving within the next 100 years as do Lincoln Center and the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Sadly there’s absolutely nothing that can be done to change this circumstance.
Regardless of the economic and logistical benefits of moving MSG to above the western rail yard, I would just hate to see a big stubby building plopped down there in front of the big already-complete towers. The western yards has always been envisioned as a big (primarily) residential expansion with a school and a park to help round out the ‘complete neighborhood’ concept of the whole project. The sheer density of all those little towers sort of sloping downwards towards the river would be quite striking. Maybe the footprint is big enough to hold both an arena and some smaller towers but I would hate to see the residential portion canceled outright.
2 Likes
Not to mention the Dolans would never agree to go there. They’re currently sited on top of or within a one block walk of the LIRR, NJT, A/C/E, B/D/F/M, N/Q/R/W, and 1/2/3 — it’s one of the most accessible venues in the world. The Western Yards are walkable to a single 7 Train station.
That’s why, when the MSG rep suggested they’d be amenable to moving (assuming there was a real proposal in place), they specifically referred to the site CB5 identified across the street. The only other site I can imagine coming even close to meeting that criteria is the Sunnyside Yards.
3 Likes