I don’t post a lot, but when I do, I tend to express a personal opinion. All three of my posts from yesterday got censored because they are counter to the mob opinion on Yimby. I came to this forum because it seemed like a breath of fresh air from that other forum that shall not be named. Time to go back to Skysckapercity. Bye y’all. Truly pathetic.
The censorship has gotten absurd. Certain “new” members constantly flag posts that they disagree with as “offensive,” and moderators then obeisantly delete them.
It’s ridiculous. I’ve been on this forum since it was formed, and I’ll remain on it when I’m drinking margaritas on the beach during the winter from Marco. Nonetheless, it’s like Stalin has taken control, and it’s ludicrous per se. There was more freedom of expression on the Animal Farm and in Oceana.
I also will be soon setting off into the sunset.
I remember when you were harassed on skyscrapercity and when this forum was formed. Many of us followed you and this did become a nice space, much more active than any competitor space. But this has become ridiculous. So, just because I expressed an opinion that is counter to the mob, and said I don’t like the latest proposal, all of my posts were flagged. I did not insult anyone. I did not engage anyone in a fight. It was just me saying, albeit in a hyperbolic manner, that I don’t like it and bang: cancelled.
1 Like
Robert, I think it is the Stasi.
1 Like
I remember what this said before it was flagged, not sure I’d say it was against anything anyone else was saying or worthy of being flagged, but I will say I was slightly confused by what you wrote because it sounded like you thought my initial image (the staircase with plants scheme) is what was new (which is the waterfall scheme) when it was the old design, I’m not sure if you were confused? 
Arena
The LIRR concourse project is associated with the East End Gateway project, the big parabolic entrance on 33rd between 1 and 2 PENN, though there are some LIRR lines serviced at Moynihan (@stache) it is not considered the LIRR concourse because as stache said it mainly services Amtrak because the rail branches narrow underneath Farley. The LIRR concourse is all the new work that was recently done.
But anyways, I’ll still beg to differ in saying 24’ is not low. Im also not sure what you mean by modern stations need high ceilings for circulation. Do you mean air circulation? Pretty sure people walk horizontally and not vertically so circulation wouldn’t be a factor of needing high ceiling, which are actually more expensive to circulate air in/ require bigger equipment to handle the air circulation capacity.
1 Like
24’ is not that tall, have you seen the inside of Grand Central?
Public transit hubs benefit from high ceilings, they just do. With that many people coming and going, you need to keep things lofty. Otherwise it gets stuffy.
1 Like
I agree with this which is why a lot of the subway stations are always extremely humid and hot due to their low ceilings (and unfortunate lack of HVAC systems), but outside of that you’re comparing different rooms/spaces to unrelated different rooms/spaces. The portion you’re outlining as being too low, the 24’ tall portion, is not comparable to the main concourse at Grand Central, that is a waiting hall, it is not the train mezzanine level of which those platform levels at Grand Central are not high at all. The portion that should be being compared to the waiting hall at Grand Central is the midblock concourse halls here that are 105’ tall.
Concourses come in all sorts of sizes and heights. But comparably, considering the platform level itself is not open to above and has a mezzanine level above it, which is how Penn Station differs from Grand Central, the two can not be compared to each other and shouldnt be, they are laid out in a completely different manner.
The mezzanine level is not the platform level, it will not get stuffy because it will be completely conditioned space just as the new LIRR concourse space is not stuffy at peak hours. So imagine that space but 6 feet higher, thats not low in terms of just being a concourse, not a grand waiting hall like at GC and the original Penn Station equivalent.
Is the actual 55’ tall train hall space at the west side low compared to Moynihans 92’ tall train hall, yes, it definitely is. But theres also no strict definition of the term lofty, as that term differs between people and objects. All spaces can be conditioned properly and efficiently for comfort, but anything above 10’ I’d say is lofty, something doesnt necessarily have to be tall to be comfortable.
1 Like
I just want to say in defense of Yimby, someone flagged these posts but it being a holiday weekend, the Mods may not be online to make a final decision about these posts.
3 Likes
I guess we’ll agree to disagree. I just don’t think it’s as tall as it should be. Go look at pics of the old station and you’ll see my POV. Thats the way a train hall should be IMO.
2 Likes
The debate here about height seems to me to be more about architectural aesthetics than air circulation. Though the old subway stations are mostly terrible on both aesthetic and human circulation grounds for both the train levels and upper waiting and service areas, major train terminals typically were built with aesthetics and circulation both embedded in the plans. Their origin stories were generally very different. Grand Central, the old Penn Station, Union Station in St. Louis, Newark’s Union Station, and a host of others arose when train companies competed and had lots of money. I give lots of gold stars to the new Farley for trying to match the old grandeur. Much of the concern about Penn Station, now a marginally glorified subway transfer point, I think arises out of a great desire to return to the “old days” when trains literally carried the world on their shoulders. I have that desire as well. The plans now circulating about Penn can never match a place like Grand Central as long as MSG stays. We can only hope that some small level of aesthetic grandeur can be crafted for the benefit of all. The extant plans try to do that but are seriously limited in how far they can go.
7 Likes
You are a valuable and admirable forum member, Chused. You always have great posts and are respectful to others even when you disagree with them.
1 Like
Considering that this is a $6b plan, what’s the cost of a new MSG? The city would only have to pay for the MSG building and site. The city has no obligation to pay for a new arena site and then build a new arena for a multibillion dollar corporation that hasn’t paid taxes for decades.
If the city renews the permit only for five years, it forces MSG to move. That would also benefit Rangers and Knicks fans who would get a new arena.
I’d be happy with the ATSM plan, but it’s not exactly cheap. I’d prefer this.
A new MSG should rise by Yankee Stadium or in LIC, but if they really want to be in Manhattan, the site between 33rd and 34th is ideal. Vornado is on board, and the small properties it doesn’t own wouldn’t cost much to acquire by eminent domain. These junky little buildings have no real value as independent sites since very little could be built on each individual parcel.
2 Likes
That AS BECK building has already been torn down.
1 Like
Thanks. Much appreciated. I also kinda like the ASTM plan given the spatial limitations we face.
4 Likes
$8.6 billion to relocate MSG and build a new Penn station and that is at the expense of the taxpayers.
1 Like
When you say relocate MSG, do you mean to build them a new stadium? Why would the city have to do that? If the permit expires, MSG is useless as an arena, and MSG would have to move. Obviously, the Dolans still own the building and the land, but if they play hardball, the city could use eminent domain and pay FMV. I don’t see how that building and site are worth more than $3b, if that. Chakrobarti’s plan to replace the facade with glass and make other alterations couldn’t cost more than $1b.
1 Like
Also, the ATSM plan is $6b, and it seems that they’re putting up only $1b. Thus, the taxpayers and agencies still have to fund $5b.
1 Like
Yes, that was the analysis concluded by the ESDC in 2021, they’d have to build a new arena because they’d effectively be buying out MSG, that includes buying the land, the air rights, and the building, and then buying new land, demoing whatever is on that land and then finally building the new arena. Only $2 billion worth of the analysis was to rebuild Penn, which seems on the very low end.
On the otherhand, yes, the rest of the $5 billion in the ASTM plan is being paid for in the end by the taxpayers, but it’s already federal money/funds that are being allotted/committed to Penn Station, it’s not new money. One thing that needs to be noted is that this is a state endeavor, the city just approves things that happen, but the project, Penn Station, and the railroads belong to the state.
1 Like
Obviously, if the city acquires MSG by eminent domain, it her to pay the FMV for the building and land, but it has no obligation to pay for a new site and build a new arena. Dolan has to do that.
I assume that the same federal money would be applicable to buying MSG, via ED, and retrofitting the arena into a station.
No. Because MSG still owns the land and building. They could develop skyscrapers on the site.
1 Like