Where MSG is located, it offers the best location for people from Manhattan, the surrounding Burroughs, Westchester, Long Island, Connecticut, and New Jersey to travel by train to. I can’t imagine having to take the 4 train in the Bronx to go to an event to MSG when the Yankees are playing. It’s already a nightmare having to take it home when there is a Yankee game. Adding more people would only make it more of a difficult transportation hub. Same goes for Queens and Hudson Yards with the new arena soon to rise
Okay. This is such a non argument tho. Ofc it’s the best location, it’s right on top of Penn Station.
It would be the best location for pretty much anything you put there. Large office tower? Hotel? Hospital? Whatever.
1 Like
For a building of its magnitude and importance it is.
Vornado owns almost everything in this screenshot.
A new MSG could go on this site between 34th and 32nd.
Vornado also concedes that a lack of demand will preclude construction of its Penn office towers any time soon. Thus, that land will lie empty for years. If a new MSG rises there and a new station is built on the MSG site, this decrepit arm pit will gentrify like wildfire.
This area has the potential to be beautiful. The old office buildings on 7th and 8th north of 34th St are gorgeous. They could be restored and converted into apartments and hotels. (One on 7th already has been.)
When the time comes, Vornado could build enormous towers on its sites in the area.
1 Like
That’s exactly what those articles are, taking words out of context like I mentioned before. Fisher has not conceded absolutely anything and then literally went on to say they are not moving. Thats why the articles need to be read instead of just the titles and thats why ai quoted what he said in my initial post.
All this talk about the city holding the cards, thats an incredibly obvious statement, but that doesnt mean they are going to because even they understand the importance of MSG’s current location due to the money it currently generates for the city when events are hosted there and the home it provides for the teams that play there. The city is 100% not going to kick them out just because they can like some want to believe.
@ALC11 I equally agree that that is the best viable solution, but are those glass blocks or just tiles? I think they are just tiles with a nice pattern lol.
1 Like
@TKDV They are quite reminiscent of the old Penn Station glass blocks so I’m assuming they are. If you look carefully, the rendering depicts the “glass block” portions of the tiles to be slightly reflective, further implying they are likely glass blocks.
(Source)
4 Likes
I agree that something like the Woods Bagot proposal, with MSG remaining suspended over a much airier train hall, is our realistic best case scenario.
However I’ve noticed a few recent development trends that might point to a three-birds-with-one-stone solution that would make all parties happy: the Dolans and Vornado partner on a re-conceived Empire Station Complex — a new MSG + casino resort.
Steve Roth recently admitted on an investor call that Vornado was pumping the brakes on the Empire Station Complex because of the difficulty of financing and the sub-optimal office market.
Meanwhile (or, I would argue, as a result) they’ve proposed an alternate use for Hotel Pennsylvania: a casino.
https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2023/01/23/vornado-eyeing-nycs-casino-sweepstakes/
The biggest issues with the CB5/Chakrabarti proposal are: no one knows whether the proposed residential towers would make enough revenue to cover the massive expense of relocating MSG and rebuilding the train hall; and why would Vornado agree to give up their development plans?
But what’s would be lucrative than a casino, tied to the world’s most famous arena, on top of a transit hub connecting the whole Northeast metro region?
Here’s how I see it:
The city gets a new train hall it can be proud of, and the money to pay for it;
The Dolans get a state of the art new arena to last the next 50+ years, in an arguably superior location on Herald square;
Vornado gets to cash in on the ultra-lucrative casino/sports betting business, protecting itself from the unpredictable post-pandemic office market;
There’s plenty of development room left over within the Penn district to build the new residential towers that CB5 wants;
And NY politicos get to maintain their cushy relationships with the Dolans and Vornado.
Win. Win. Win. Win. Win.
Edited to include the proposed CB5/Chakrabarti site:
7 Likes
Thats an interesting perspective, but generally I think people need to understand how big MSG is in terms of diameter (if kept a circle vs being enlarged to an ellipse) If a resort was to replace the 15 PENN lot, there wouldn’t be adequate room to the east of it for even a normal sized MSG because the footprint left is 50% vs the current 66% that it takes up. Inversely, Vornado could also sell their portion of what they own of the ESC sites to someone else that sees a better perspective for their futures. 
@ALC11 Ah, I see! That would be very nice then! I still dont understand why this proposal or the general idea to remove the theater is never being brought up.
@robertwalpole I don’t take it personal at all, I just dont understand why you keep on mentioning that fact (and you have mentioned it many a times) when its not really important considering the overall view of the city towards MSG and not a few of the CB 5 members and I don’t mean for this in a negative way. It just seems antithetical as it’s not one of the important aspects of the overall idea to move or keep MSG where it is.
2 Likes
I’m talking about CB5/Chakrabarti’s proposed plot bounded by Broadway, 7th, 32nd and 34th, which has been extensively covered by YIMBY.
This is the site that the MSG rep was referring to as being theoretically acceptable if there was a concrete plan. My above proposal is about turning this purely theoretical plan into something that can make everybody gobs of money.
6 Likes
Calling a statement “obnoxious” is, in fact, obnoxious and puerile. I have nothing more to say on the issue.
That plan would be amazing.
I understand and do remember that proposal and others that have been envisioned for that particularly bound portion, a lot of proposals to move MSG are actually placed there if not the majority of them. My comment was mainly refering to how things are zoned now though, that if the planned 15 PENN was converted to mixed use with a resort included that a new MSG wouldnt fit in the land to the east of it anymore. 
That is unless it is somehow also planned to intersect with 15 PENN.
@robertwalpole Where did I mention anything being obnoxious, I said obvious, two very different words. Unless you’re saying my overall comments were obnoxious, you’re allowed to think that way and I dont have anything against that.
That plan is great. It has been a while since I’ve gone over it, but isn’t this better for MSG because of the easier access to trucks and the like? Would love to see what design they’d go with if they build from scratch.
Also if they ever did go with that plan might as well be ambitious and make those 2 the first and second tallest buildings in the city. My reason for that? Lol I’m just a dreamer.
I don’t believe it would be any easier/better than the current BoH scheme that the current building has, which is fairly simple as well.
I too believe if the arena had to be moved that this would be a good alternative location, but the design, though extremely rough of course, is not very pretty, it’s way too dystopian in appearance. Especially when considering the shape of it’s massing.
Ah yeah I just look at some of the close ups. Well that is just preliminary. The design can get better
Also idk why I thought the building would be elevated. I just looked at it again and it would definitely be at street level. It must have been a slice of the building and I saw a higher floor
2 Likes
Ha yeah, those designs are for illustrative purposes only, and have no bearing on what a new Garden would look like.
As far as the question about fitting multiple uses like a casino onto the site, my assumption is that — just like in its current location — the actual event space of the Garden would be elevated, allowing development of large gaming floors between Broadway and 7th underneath. And I’m pretty sure if you located the bulk of the arena on one end of the site, you’d have a large enough plot to build at least a large hotel/resort tower. It’s almost exactly the size of the current Penn Station site, so I figure a tower with a similar footprint to 2 Penn or even larger would fit without any problem.
2 Likes
I’d like them to move MSG to the West Yard and open a park on the current MSG site and put Cleopatra’s Needle in the middle. It could be the new centerpiece of the city that everyone sees when they first arrive here! Right now it’s hidden in Central Park where no one knows it exists.
…
3 Likes
-
This thread is for MSG convos not the Penn Station thread. Sorry for the confusion.
-
That is, a mighty silly idea.
6 Likes