I didn’t think Hudson Yards was the best choice for the casino but at least the school will still be built.
1 Like
this does not mean they have a casino license. that is a separate process. but this is a necessary step should they win a license.
6 Likes
Exactly. I’m kind of shocked this got approved, but now I expect even more vocal opposition directed at the Governor’s office to fight this project getting one of the downstate licenses.
My takeaway from this whole process is that Related no longer thinks a residential-focused version of Phase 2 will pencil out, so it may be that if there’s no casino, the Western yards will sit open an undeveloped for the foreseeable future. But it may also be the case that that’s what they want us to believe, so they can justify breaking their promises to the community in order to install a gigantic bronze cash printing machine.
5 Likes
dont forget, the city and state want that cash printing machine too. they are going to give the licenses to the proposals that can print the most money the soonest and has solid financing opportunities.
the related deal checks those boxes, especially if they have their ULURP and other approvals in place.
i dont see a scenario where WRY doesnt get one of the licenses.
9 Likes
Sure, but why would NYC/NY State believe a Hudson Yards casino — sitting on one subway stop and surrounded mostly by corporate office space, upscale condos, and a defunct mall —will rake in more money than one in Time Square or next to the sports complex in Flushing?
Casinos tend to thrive in dedicated entertainment districts. I can’t point to a successful one in the midst of… whatever Hudson Yards is.
6 Likes
Well we can start with the fact there’s 3 licenses to give out, so it doesn’t actually really need to compete with those. And 2 just by virtue of being in Midtown alone means it’ll make more money than a casino in the outlying boroughs.
Also, it’s really not that far from Penn Station or Times Square and it’s already an insanely popular new district for the city even without Phase 2.
1 Like
The high line, convention center, and MSG too
4 Likes
The (defunct) mall and the convention center constitute a natural synergy for a casino. All that is missing are the strip clubs, but if you’re telling me they plan on building schools nearby, that closes the loop " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wRVfiR_xWc. Devry by day, ballet by night!
1 Like
I’m with you on this! Based on the criteria provided, Times Sq is the obvious best choice. It’s a renovation job and doesn’t have to wait for gargantuan platforms to be constructed over an active railway like in HY.
Almost every tourist will pass through times sq. I honestly doubt most tourists have even heard of Hudson Yards or the high line before their trip (progressive yuppie types have perhaps).
A brief look at some numbers:
-
Hudson Yards Daily Traffic: Crain’s New York Business reported daily weekend traffic peaking near 70,000 in March 2019, with subsequent weekends averaging between 25,000 and 50,000.
-
On an average weekend, Times Square sees around 250,000 to 300,000 pedestrians. On its busiest days, the number can reach as high as 400,000. Link
Even if we consider that there’s more pedestrians in Hudson Yards now than in 2019 because there are more workers, daily workers are generally not the ones who will be frequenting the casino and the numbers above are for weekends and not weekdays, so representative of mostly leisure pedestrians
All in all, there’s really just no comparison in these numbers, it’s an order of magnitude difference!
2 Likes
Exactly why it should be in Hudson Yards. You won’t know it’s there unless you seek it out, your average tourist would have to cross 11th Ave in order to get there from the most touristy parts of Hudson Yards, The Edge and the mall.
Also, skyscrapers are cool, and the Times Square proposal is nowhere close to as cool.
4 Likes
I think the fact that it is not in times square is a plus.
The WRY proposal is also much bigger, so more upside potential. Better access for driving patrons and to and from NJ over the longer term due to proximity to penn station.
There will be more opportunities to bake in amenities. It really depends what the target clientele really is. WRY seems more aligned with the Wynn brand anyways.
2 Likes
I understand that you may prefer it in HY based on your own personal criteria. I’m just saying based on the criteria in the RFP, the answer seems quite clear to me.
2 Likes
also HY is just as far from Penn Station as TS, any difference is marginal
Not to mention the 15 subway lines that stop close to TS and the Port Authority terminal.
I would imagine that most Wynn clientele are not taking the train into the city, which is why highway access is likely more important.
1 Like
I would think that most clients to any of the Manhattan casino proposals will not arrive by car.
If the argument is that Wynn will have more upscale clients spending more money, I doubt that a more upscale clientele can make up for the 10-fold decrease in neighborhood footfall. And if the corollary argument is that the Wynn will somehow capture more avid casino-goers (beyond just casual passerbys) than Ceasar’s Palace – in a way that the very large footfall difference doesn’t matter.. I’m not sure I would buy that either (but still, could be).
Again, the very first line. There are 3 licenses. There will not be competition between Times Square and HY.
Most people in the casino biz believe you need absolutely giant floor plates to keep people gambling. That’s why they like Hudson Yards.
3 Likes
Most articles I’ve read have said that the two “racinos” that already exist are likely to win two of those bids. That would leave only one bid left for all the rest of the proposals. But of course, nothing is guaranteed.
The two “racinos” at Aqueduct and Yonkers Raceway appear to be favorites for winning two of the three downstate casino licenses. They have both been in operation for more than a decade and have made hundreds of millions on the VLT slot machine-like devices at each location, but introducing table games at both locations would make both ventures even more lucrative.
Yet the race for all three downstate licenses is wide open — and nothing is a sure bet in the fierce competition full of big ideas and visions with billions of dollars at stake.
“…with the region’s two current “racinos” — the MGM Resorts International’s Empire City Casino in Yonkers and Genting Group’s Resorts World New York City in the Queens Aqueduct Racetrack complex — believed by some to be at the front of the line for licenses to become full casinos with table games. They are currently limited to a race track and slot machines, and since they are both already established their owners are hopeful that they can win full licenses…”
"Many lobbyists and elected officials believe the region’s two existing racinos — including one in Yonkers, N.Y. — are the leading contenders for two of the three licenses.
One is Genting Group’s Resorts World New York City in Queens, and the other is MGM Resorts International’s Empire City Casino in Yonkers, just north of New York City.
With full casino licenses, they could expand to offer live table games like poker and blackjack.
Both racinos already have the infrastructure to quickly turn into full casinos. But they also boast legions of lobbyists, ample campaign donations to relevant elected officials and strong ties to both local constituencies and the union representing their employees.
The real competition is understood to be for the third license."
1 Like
Most insiders are assuming that there is de facto one license remaining.
2 Likes
because two are for manhattan already?