# NYC Underground **URL:** \ **Category:** New York\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673 "2021-11-05T22:09:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![BA178](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/ba178/32/186334_2.png) [@BA178](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/BA178)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/182 "2025-04-11T17:08:27Z")
At least the vendors are trying to provide a service – I don’t see why we should be targeting them. ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/183 "2025-04-11T19:50:21Z")
I don’t mind vendors. It’s nice to grab a snack if you’re in a hurry from them if they’re around. They really don’t bother you either. The “showtime”/dancing types and vagrants _are_ a nuisance and need to go, however. ---
**Author:** ![Mackensen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/mackensen/32/138218_2.png) [@Mackensen](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/Mackensen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2025, 5:56pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/184 "2025-04-13T17:56:53Z")
I photographed two old subway plans for the 1964 World’s Fair. ![IMG_3523](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/2/c/2c95569f97d6b7401f5463ede10d50066f7b8077.jpeg) ![IMG_3522](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/1/5/154a8657ea654465e5de862b9a1713523a2c6083.jpeg) ————————————— ![IMG_3517](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/3/3/3301989e413eb923a6348e21fdc6c92c6419415b.jpeg) ![IMG_3520](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/8/9/89c40006b46f40ecb4df3d701a9b7f0ef3668c4d.jpeg) ![IMG_3521](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/a/b/abd07e9dcfbb99d0a7bf6e94875090c3dbf12b97.jpeg) ![IMG_3520](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/8/9/89c40006b46f40ecb4df3d701a9b7f0ef3668c4d.jpeg) ![IMG_3518](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/9/4/94662dad814c68bea0ecefeb7fc8500447933e94.jpeg) Collection by Miss Mackensen ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2025, 6:11pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/185 "2025-04-13T18:11:40Z")
Those are cool vintage subway maps. The NY Transit Museum has two cars preserved in that blue World’s Fair livery as well. Even back then you can see the massive transit desert in Queens. ---
**Author:** ![stache](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/stache/32/30186_2.png) [@stache](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/stache)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/186 "2025-04-14T13:51:10Z")
Fifteen cents and even back then they were stressing the trains were safe because they were express. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/3/7/37d3d4fd43cfe721fe01fe044e45a977a3826b94.jpeg "New York World's Fair Subway Commercial (1964)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wStZZ6hNweU) More information on the previous train line. I’m guessing Moses killed it becoming permanent. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/e/b/eb117a23b4f334ef1fe25a6f3cd38590a5662e07.jpeg "NYC's World's Fair Line - The Lost Subway") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjwtJNZAxuo) ![Worlds-fair-map](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/f/6/f61197c1716122b2a87745bb0860d3288bc8e632.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![GSPLover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@GSPLover](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/GSPLover)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 8:59pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/187 "2025-04-14T20:59:39Z")
“The lost subway” How does one loose a subway? I was 13 when the Worlds Fair opened. Went many times via the LIRR. Great memories. ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 10:37pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/188 "2025-04-14T22:37:58Z")
I mean it’s kind of wrong to label the 1939 World’s Fair route as “lost” when it was built as a _temporary_ line that was only to run for the duration of the fair with the station being built on wood piling foundations and of temporary wooden and steel construction. The line itself was deemed unsuitable to be made permanent and certain components were built just to last for the duration of the fair such as a wooden trestle so retrofitting would have been expensive which contributed to its demolition. ---
**Author:** ![stache](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/stache/32/30186_2.png) [@stache](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/stache)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 12:18am UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/189 "2025-04-15T00:18:48Z")
I think the point that the youtube poster was making is the right of way was lost. ---
**Author:** ![stache](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/stache/32/30186_2.png) [@stache](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/stache)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 11:00pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/190 "2025-04-15T23:00:10Z")
Somewhat off topic, [Polonsky Exhibition of The New York Public Library's Treasures | The New York Public Library](https://www.nypl.org/events/exhibitions/treasures) It’s free and they have a large bird’s eye illustration of the 1939 fair. It goes into great detail. Worth going to if you’re in the area. ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 5:44am UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/191 "2025-04-16T05:44:24Z")
The critical Rockaways resiliency project will be done by May and is currently on-time and on-budget. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/0/0/005bce31eb7d3f68333c47fc1e136765e62a20f7.jpeg "Construction that shut down part of A train subway line set to end by Memorial Day") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhF2SCItf0) ---
**Author:** ![Waymond\_Womano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/waymond_womano/32/7078_2.png) [@Waymond\_Womano](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/Waymond_Womano)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 2:03pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/192 "2025-04-20T14:03:02Z")
> **[An Inside Look at the NYC Subway’s Archaic Signal System](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/20/nyregion/nyc-subway-signals.html)** > > Vast swaths of the subway still rely on signal equipment from the Great Depression. A multibillion dollar plan, now at risk, hopes to bring the system into the 21st century ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 1:55pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/193 "2025-04-21T13:55:28Z")
Overhead electrification could be possible for potential electrification of some LIRR lines. NJT Through running can be very much possible. > **[Overhead LIRR electrification a cheaper alternative, study says](https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/lirr-overhead-electrification-d5x4mfdc)** > > Commuters in diesel territory would see reductions in trip times of about 20 minutes to and from Penn Station. ([Paywall Bypass](https://archive.ph/CmKly)) ---
**Author:** ![Waymond\_Womano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/waymond_womano/32/7078_2.png) [@Waymond\_Womano](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/Waymond_Womano)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/194 "2025-04-21T14:28:26Z")
That would also mean a train could start in Port Jefferson or Oyster Bay and travel to Grand Central Madison, which does not permit diesel trains. Assuming a LIRR train with the pantograph folded on its roof can fit into the 63rd Street tunnel. The through-running would be amazing. Imagine a train begins at Port Jefferson with its pantograph upright, then the pantograph lowers at Huntington where the train switches to third rail, only to have the pantograph go up again at Pennsylvania Station for the ride to Trenton. ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 4:32pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/195 "2025-04-21T16:32:04Z")
Modified M8’s could easily be used with this being potentially the most cost-effective option, as no new bespoke trains need to be ordered. They just need LIRR-compatible top-running third rail shoes for the 3rd rail electrified trackage. As long as the tunnels can fit the 14-foot height of the M8’s then they should be good to go. (M9, the latest car series, is 12 feet tall). ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2025, 8:11pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/196 "2025-04-28T20:11:41Z")
Starting in Fall 2025, new faregates that are hopefully harder to evade fares with are going to be tested and installed in select stations. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/b/c/bcce0e68c22c3da1665ce5594638e77fe9adca8b.jpeg) > **[MTA to begin replacing NYC's subway turnstiles with modern fare gates](https://gothamist.com/news/mta-to-begin-replacing-nycs-subway-turnstiles-with-modern-fare-gates)** > > Transit officials have griped about fare evasion for decades, but until now never moved to fundamentally redesign the city's subway turnstiles. > **[MTA to test four different modern fare gates across New York City subway system](https://abc7ny.com/post/mta-testing-fare-evasion-gates-nyc-subway-new-york/16269253/)** > > The MTA has announced they will be testing four different modern fare gates at 20 different stations across New York City. > **[MTA will install turnstile technology as part of plan to prevent fare evasion](https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2025/04/28/mta-will-install-turnstile-technology-fare-evasion/)** > > SYSTEMWIDE SUBWAY FARE EVASION PLUMMETED 30% from the second quarter of 2024 to the first quarter of 2025. ---
**Author:** ![Nickfloyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/nickfloyo/32/173662_2.png) [@Nickfloyo](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/Nickfloyo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/197 "2025-04-29T18:12:41Z")
[https://pix11.com/news/local-news/mta-capital-plan-included-in-record-254b-ny-budget/](https://pix11.com/news/local-news/mta-capital-plan-included-in-record-254b-ny-budget/) ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:02pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/198 "2025-04-30T20:02:13Z")
A set of R188’s (used on the 7 train) were fitted with rubber tube attachments to dissuade subway surfing. [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/0/7/078bf90bfa61c78c248009f9ab0b989846cd9463.jpeg "⁴ᴷ⁶⁰ R188s Retrofitted with Experimental Anti-Subway Surfing Barriers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3tSQ7YaAbI) The MTA should put vertical ones, much like what commuter railroads use as well as someone determined enough may still be able to climb around them. This _is_ a good start though. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/6/a/6a6af3698e6c8f5531cdd2b40544394f9a03df4a.jpeg) BART is another rapid transit agency that uses vertical rubber in addition to the top one. This might also make it safer to walk between cars if necessary as well. ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/5/c/5c19cc28d517e3a3a7564c04f40fd2c0ef89fb4a.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![baronson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/baronson/32/190290_2.png) [@baronson](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/baronson)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:27pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/199 "2025-04-30T20:27:16Z")
MTA always late to the party but I applaud this move. The trains are not play things for contestants vying for a Darwin Award. ---
**Author:** ![ALC11](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/alc11/32/81254_2.png) [@ALC11](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/ALC11)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:48pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/200 "2025-04-30T20:48:02Z")
This solution however does _not_ address the issue of subway surfers riding on the back of the trains. The R211’s make this more difficult with a door that is flush with the rest of the car ends but the R142, R188, R179, R160, R143, R62 and R68 series cars (basically everything that is not a 211 and is in active service) are all susceptible. The R46’s have a flush end as well but those cars are starting to get replaced by 211’s and won’t be around for much longer. In one of my last visits to the city, I had the “privilege” of seeing someone subway surf by hopping on the back of the train from the platform at Queensboro Plaza: ![IMG_9339](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/yimby/original/3X/6/1/61a7336b7df324c3e007d4de5ce08f4f705c5f92.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Waymond\_Womano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.newyorkyimby.com/waymond_womano/32/7078_2.png) [@Waymond\_Womano](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/u/Waymond_Womano)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673/201 "2025-04-30T20:58:14Z")
They’re called rubber “bellows” even though they’re above and not “bellow” the train? Reminds me of Saul Bellow, the great writer from Montreal. Speaking of Montreal, did you know that the Montreal metro runs on rubber tires instead of steel wheels like the NYC subway? So, in a sense, the Montreal metro is a “rubber tube.” And that’s how it all comes full circle, my friends. [Previous page](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/nyc-underground/20673.md?page=11)